22 comments

  • woopwoop 13 hours ago
    Last time I flew Delta they no longer had this bot, which made me sad. One of my favorite parts of flying was getting absolutely crushed into a tiny cube by the airplane seat's easy chess bot, and then again by the airplane seat itself when the person in front of me reclines their seat.
    • mrandish 11 hours ago
      > then again by the airplane seat itself when the person in front of me reclines their seat.

      This reminds me of the time I had my laptop open on the tilt-down tray and the very large man in the seat in front just repositioned his girth (not even reclining the seat) but it flexed the seat back enough that my laptop screen was momentarily caught between the tray below and recessed lip above and was almost crushed.

      • kimixa 6 hours ago
        That happened to me when I had an ipad in a standing case and the seat in front cranked back - trapping then pinging the tablet across me and by neighbour's lap.

        Though the ipad itself wasn't damaged, a couple of glasses didn't make it, and required the steward to try to brush up whatever fragments of glass they could.

        I feel that airlines are a microcosm of "Do you care about who you actions might affect?" - similar to the "Do you return the cart to the corral" test at supermarkets - are you willing to put even the smallest bit of effort to significantly improve other people's experiences?

        • spydr 3 hours ago
          > do you care about who your actions might affect

          This one surprises me every time I fly. When I have the aisle seat I can be up and out in 10 seconds. It seems to make like everyone else will plop down , place down 3 different liquids on the tray and then take a nap. When I ask to use the bathroom I end up feeling like a nuisance

        • haritha-j 41 minutes ago
          I actually quite liek yanair's no frills no recline design. For some reason it feels less clusterphobic to me. it just feels more spacious and roomy, despite the absence of space.
        • vasco 2 hours ago
          Airlines shouldn't have reclining seats, it's bad design. Blaming people for the bad design is stupid. I never recline and still blame it on the design. Stupid people exist, you should design for that.
          • CalRobert 1 hour ago
            Flights from sfo to Frankfurt bolt upright sound unpleasant…

            Not to mention that when my wife was pregnant she could barely manage her back pain -with- the recline, never mind without.

            The recline button is there for your use. You are welcome to avail of it yourself.

          • sp8 1 hour ago
            Sorry for an empty response but this, 100% this. As a person who is WELL over 6' tall, the very idea that the person in front of me might recline is enough to give me significant anxiety throughout a flight. I once saw a design for seats where the base slides forward if you want to recline - the idea being, if you're going to recline you're going to do so into your own space, not the person behind you. I'd be a big advocate of that change in seat design...
          • 123pie123 58 minutes ago
            in reality there should be a legal minimum leg room that's based on the distance of the flight

            the recline feature should be baked in to this as well

          • nostromo 2 hours ago
            I think reclining is appropriate at night only. If it were up to me, they would be locked upright during the day.
          • rsynnott 1 hour ago
            This is one thing I like about Ryanair; they don't.
          • baxtr 2 hours ago
            It wouldn't surprise me if Ryanair had reclining seats that reclined only if you paid for it.
            • iainmerrick 9 minutes ago
              I think the secret of Ryanair is that their goal is actually to make their turnarounds as fast and efficient as possible, not explicitly to make money by adding a fee for every little aspect of the service.

              If anything can possibly slow down flight boarding, disembarking or cleanup, they'll first try to remove it completely, and only if people object too much will they reluctantly offer it with a fee.

              Pocket on the seat back -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.

              Luggage -> most people need this, but not everyone -> charge a fee.

              Reclining seat -> most people don't use on short flights -> get rid of them.

              They do sell drinks and duty free; that's an interesting one. I guess once the flight is airborne, the flight attendants aren't really doing anything else (from management's perspective) so they might as well sell stuff. Plus the trolley blocking the aisle stops passengers from moving around, which they probably see as a big advantage.

              I think this even applies to the ridiculous penalty fees they charge for e.g. trying to check in at the airport rather than doing it beforehand on the app. It feels like they're just trying to rip you off, but I suspect they see it more as a "nudge" to make people check in online, because that streamlines their airport process.

              I got a little bit less annoyed by them when I realised this. Sure, it's still uncomfortable and sometimes infuriating, but it's all with the aim of an efficient and reliable service, and they're way better than average at that.

            • foota 1 hour ago
              "Your neighbor is trying to recline, outbid them to stop them..."
              • darkwater 51 minutes ago
                Don't give them ideas!
            • rsynnott 1 hour ago
              Ryanair doesn't have reclining seats at all.
              • baxtr 17 minutes ago
                Which means they haven’t found a way to monetize the feature yet!
        • VTimofeenko 4 hours ago
          And if you are the airline the answer is a resounding "no"
          • nebula8804 4 hours ago
            The airline is not a human being. It is an imaginary construct.
            • Dylan16807 2 hours ago
              And yet it still gets to participate and answer the question in the worst way.
              • nebula8804 1 hour ago
                Only in some messed up parts of the world.
                • Dylan16807 1 hour ago
                  Airlines pick out what seats they want and how to space them in most of the world, don't they?

                  That's the root cause of the suffering here. The actions with the strongest ill effects.

      • thomc 1 hour ago
        Lost an Apple iBook screen this way. Guy in front slammed his chair back while I was working on a presentation and the screen got caught at the perfect angle to flex it and it died.

        Didn't blame him, lesson learned, and I move my own seat back very slowly now.

        • faidit 1 hour ago
          Scary.. Did the airline comp you for that?
      • sejje 10 hours ago
        Gorilla glass vs gorilla
        • reincarnate0x14 6 hours ago
          (I get the joke) Not even gorillas even, the seats on most US carriers are too small and narrow for a lot of adult men even if they're in good shape. I had to sit shoulder to shoulder with one poor guy an entire flight to New Zealand because both of our shoulder widths are wider than the seats and I wanted to make sure my girlfriend had room enough to sleep. We were both good sports about it and were joking about needing a smoke afterwards, but it was not fun unless he wanted to lean halfway out into the aisle. I'm taller than average but not a giant.
          • mabster 4 hours ago
            I flew Scoot airlines recently and my 13” MacBook Air was too big to have on my lap even though the seat in front was not reclined.

            There's also something about those seats where you get back pain when you try to sleep with your own seat reclined.

      • bink 10 hours ago
        I swear this happens to me almost every time I fly.
      • jack_pp 10 hours ago
        now you know to check who's sitting in front of you. rookie mistake
      • neal_jones 10 hours ago
        Opened a laptop on my last flight and this was my immediate and persistent fear
        • VBprogrammer 1 hour ago
          Even when travelling for work I could never bring myself to get a laptop out on an aircraft. I only do it on the train occasionally if I've got something I'm deep into and a table to myself.
    • crystal_revenge 7 hours ago
      > when the person in front of me reclines their seat.

      As a reasonably tall person I have never reclined my seat and will forever consider anyone who does an asshole.

      The very fact that you can but don’t do something is the precise space where assholeness is defined.

      • mjrbrennan 6 hours ago
        This is fair on shorter flights ~1-4 hours, but I am reasonably tall too and I am not suffering through a 14 hour overnight flight without reclining. I don't think there is anything wrong with it in this case, and flight attendants will force people to de-recline their chair in meal times etc.
      • OlympusMonds 7 hours ago
        Surely you should blame the airlines, rather than the individuals. They cram more people on, giving you less space - but charge the same - and you get mad at other customers, rather than them for cramming you in.
        • crystal_revenge 6 hours ago
          I pointed out exactly the opposite: surely moral action is only possible when one has agency.

          If an airline needs to force you to be a decent person, then you have no right to claim decency in the first place.

          People who lean their seats back are assholes. Claiming “but this is permitted!” proves my point.

          I can’t imagine what a nightmare world it would be if decency were only possible through the exercise of external authority.

          • rkomorn 3 hours ago
            You have the agency to let the person in front of you have a more enjoyable flight without judging them for it.

            That is also a decent and unselfish thing to do.

            I don't lean back on flights, but I don't consider the person in front of me an asshole for doing it.

            Are you talking about agency and not being an asshole, or are you just being selfish about your space?

            • watwut 2 hours ago
              > You have the agency to let the person in front of you have a more enjoyable flight without judging them for it.

              No, being doormat that never judges assholes is not necessary in order to be a decent person.

              In fact, there is special category of decent person heroes who do the uncomfortable thing, judge assholes and even protect and help others when assholery becomes too much. Both when talking about recliners and like, terrorizing thugs in streets.

              > Are you talking about agency and not being an asshole, or are you just being selfish about your space?

              It is not being selfish to not want to give your space to an asshole who decided to take it. That person is still an asshole. And again, both when we are talking about recliner and when certain government sends violent thugs.

          • monkey_monkey 41 minutes ago
            They're absolutely not assholes. People who expect the world to revolve around them and cater for their every whim are probably more deserving of that title.
          • grayfaced 4 hours ago
            And yet I'd prefer both myself and the person in front of me lean back. The upright posture is painful for me. Is your preference more valid then mine? The fact that the chairs are configured that way suggests the cultural norm.
            • abenga 3 hours ago
              Leaning back doesn't help knee room, the person in front leaning back actually reduces it by the seat back leaning against a tall person's knees.
              • grayfaced 3 hours ago
                Even though I'm tall it's about the back, not the knees.
                • abenga 2 hours ago
                  For me, it's the knees. When everyone is leaned back you can't even comfortably use a tablet to read, while I can comfortably sit upright for a few hours (of course taking a walk from time to time). The person in front reclining their seat forces me to either manspread into the seat on the left or right (if I'm not on the aisle) or stick my feet in the aisle and getting in the cabin crew's way as they move back and forth.
            • dagi3d 3 hours ago
              so I guess you pay to choose seats in the last row of the plane...
              • yard2010 2 hours ago
                I did this once and one time was forced into doing it and it was a horrific nightmare. The lack of contra for my legs meant I was constantly slipping forward, it was tiring. The fact that this is an emergency seat made it worse - there was no handle for the hand because of some bullshit. The flight attendant policed every action I did from putting my jacket on to eating with the attachable tray. I will never do it again even if it means I fly for free.
                • VBprogrammer 1 hour ago
                  One of the most relaxed flights I ever had I was window seat in the back row with a pleasant elderly couple. When everyone else was busy queuing to get off the plane they were sat knitting. I'd got into my novel and just sat enjoying it until they moved. Far less stressful than the usual madness.
      • hackingonempty 3 hours ago
        If you don't fit in the smallest seat then buy a bigger seat. Someone using the space they paid for is not being an asshole.
        • avh02 59 minutes ago
          Tall people don't choose their height, fat people (mostly) choose their weight.

          Edit: also, if the airline can't deal with a certain percentile of the population under their normal product, they should figure out how to make it happen. It's discrimination to not account for tall people

      • arjvik 7 hours ago
        I personally believe that the ideal situation is in fact everyone reclining their seat
        • kstrauser 6 hours ago
          I'm about 6' tall, even. In some cattlejets, my knees physically touch the seat in front of me. A lady on a recent flight flung her seat back and I cried out involuntarily in sudden pain.

          I understand why she wanted to lean back. And yet, when she did, it freaking hurt. I'm around the 80th percentile in height in the US, and while my doctor says I could lose a few pounds, I wear a men's large shirt so I'm not exactly enormous. Even though they seat can technically recline, you cannot convince me that they're actually meant to.

        • mjevans 7 hours ago
          Can I have the 5th element padded roller beds that are disinfected between every use?
        • bschwindHN 6 hours ago
          My ideal airline would be one where you show up to the airport with your luggage, check it in, and then they knock you out and load you on the plane.

          You get woken up at your destination after they've taken you off the plane. It would be the closest thing you can get to teleportation.

          Then the airline wouldn't have to fuss with preparing shitty food and coffee or deal with annoying passengers. A win for everyone!

        • jen20 6 hours ago
          Not every seat reclines: the one in front of the exit row is a key example.
      • tayo42 3 hours ago
        I have never come across this opinion until it seemed to have blown up on the internet in the last few years.
    • kazinator 9 hours ago
      Some low cost airlines no longer have anything. A small fold-out tray to hold your tablet. There is Wi-Fi to access an intranet with flight information and maybe some entertainment. If you have that, you just load it up with games from your play store.
      • reincarnate0x14 6 hours ago
        I prefer the Airbus 31x and 32x models without the entertainment systems so much more. On United the Boeing had fucking ads playing NON STOP THE ENTIRE FLIGHT and because I boarded early I'd try to turn off as many around me as possible because somehow the flying public does not mind bright flashing annoying lights in their faces for HOURS.
        • JumpCrisscross 5 hours ago
          > because somehow the flying public does not mind bright flashing annoying lights in their faces for HOURS

          We do. United has just positioned their economy products a hair below Delta by, in part, pulling off crap like this.

          • Dylan16807 2 hours ago
            "somehow does not mind" wasn't about airline choice, it was about people not hitting the off button.
        • jquery 5 hours ago
          This is a United thing, not a Boeing/Airbus thing.
      • _zoltan_ 2 hours ago
        Last I flew AA inside the US, I could watch the entertainment content on my own device via the on board wifi. This was great.
      • kaonwarb 7 hours ago
        This is increasingly common in domestic US full-price airlines. It makes sense, in a way - most folks have their own devices, and the airlines save money and weight and don't have to worry about future tech obsolescence - but still makes me a bit sad.
        • kazinator 5 hours ago
          Right? That's why I don't want a car with any system for entertainment, beyond generics like speakers. The car is ideally going to last 25+ years, by which time that shit will be obsolete. The software won't be upgradable, etc.
        • jen20 6 hours ago
          The thing I really wish domestic airlines would take away is reclining seats in economy. Nothing good comes from having them.
          • silisili 6 hours ago
            Same. I most recently flew Frontier and despite looking really spartan, it was actually super comfortable. And no reclining to fret over the whole flight.
          • 15155 6 hours ago
            Most budget carriers are going this way.
        • QuiEgo 6 hours ago
          I've long enjoyed both Alaska's and Southwest's version of this.
    • johnyzee 12 hours ago
      The only winning move is not to play.
      • lapetitejort 12 hours ago
        How about a nice trip on a train?
        • shermantanktop 12 hours ago
          Depends. How’s the Amtrak chess bot?
          • bink 10 hours ago
            Underfunded and constantly side-tracked by cargo bots.
          • runarberg 8 hours ago
            I think the Amtrak way is to bring a physical chess board and challenge human strangers over a nice cup of coffee in the observation car.
            • renewiltord 1 minute ago
              Then stop for 56 hours to allow freight to go by.
            • shermantanktop 8 hours ago
              The Puget Sound ferries often have a partially-done jigsaw puzzle on one of the tables. You can't finish it in 30m, so people come and do their part and move on. Eventually someone will put in the last piece, I guess, I've never seen it happen.
              • runarberg 18 minutes ago
                I love those. I have finished one (well it was missing a couple of pieces), between West-Seattle and Vashon, and what was better was that I contributed to the puzzle earlier on the way from Vashon.
              • rmunn 6 hours ago
                My last visit to Seattle was in 1998 so I can't confirm this firsthand, but I would bet that when someone finishes the jigsaw, ferry staff bring out a new one.
                • runarberg 16 minutes ago
                  Usually somebody just scrambles it again, but they are regularly rotated. I don’t have a precise measure, but I would guess every couple of weeks or so.
        • dyauspitr 11 hours ago
          I don’t have 5 days to travel across the country.
          • farialima 11 hours ago
            - it’s 3 days not 5 (e.g leaving NYC Wednesday morning arriving SF Saturday evening)

            - the internet connection is excellent (even in most tunnels) so you can work, have video meetings, etc, not to mention play chess online

            • squeaky-clean 10 hours ago
              That's 4 days traveling. Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday. Arriving in the evening doesn't mean you didn't spend that day traveling.
            • tdeck 8 hours ago
              I did this once from Seattle. It was a good experience, but the internet connection was nonexistent along large parts of the route.

              Also one way cost like $1,200.

            • amypetrik214 9 hours ago
              - the internet connection is excellent

              I mean, maybe you had a different experience. In my experience in the northeast , the internet service is about as reliable and consistent as the trains themselves (ie not consistent, garbage fire)

            • esseph 9 hours ago
              If you're not traveling between those specific destinations it can take far, far longer. Amtrak is a joke.
              • reincarnate0x14 6 hours ago
                Amtrak is decent on very specific routes and still an absolute joke to anyone who has used trains in Europe, Japan, Taiwan, etc, and no personal experience but I'd imagine China too. My friend takes the Amtrak route up and down the Pacific coast precisely because she's stuck on a train for days and can't be disturbed while doing boring paperwork as an anti-procrastination strategy. Although the observation cars do have great views.
            • dyauspitr 11 hours ago
              Let’s be realistic. I love long distance train journeys, but mainly for recreation. Being on a train for 3-5 days is pretty exhausting no matter how comfortable. I’ve done the 30 day Amtrak pass before and it was fantastic but I wouldn’t be looking forward to that if it was a work trip where I want to fly in and then get back to my family as fast as possible. There’s no way that can compare to a 5-6 hour flight+2 hours at the airport.
            • CursedSilicon 10 hours ago
              I was rather disappointed by the internet connection on the Cascades line (going Seattle --> Portland and back). As far as I could tell, they use T-Mobile for backhaul. Who are headquartered in Seattle. Yet the connection barely seemed to work for about half of the journey
              • grogenaut 7 hours ago
                boo, it's in the middle of no where along part of the route. Tmobile coverage is mainly in urban areas and along free ways no matter what slingblade tells you on the tv commercial. I don't know if you'd get any coverage on parts of that route other than wired.

                Just like how sometimes when you're flying over the rockies or into canada you just don't get internets. There's still middles of no where out there. Often not very far from the freeway.

                • Dylan16807 2 hours ago
                  Railroads are a great place to run fiber lines, so it wouldn't be hard to set up some towers.

                  Also starlink.

                • CursedSilicon 6 hours ago
                  Even tooling through places like Olympia it seemed to fizzle out
          • dostick 10 hours ago
            Why not trei a holiday in Sweden this yër? See the loveli lakes.
          • mattnewton 11 hours ago
            This wouldn’t bother me as much but it’s really like 5-7 days depending on freight use of the lines and they can’t tell you ahead of time what it’s going to be somehow?
          • DANmode 8 hours ago
            Can’t bring your work with you?

            That sucks.

          • nimih 11 hours ago
            [flagged]
    • adityaathalye 5 hours ago
      > getting absolutely crushed into a tiny cube by ... the airplane seat itself

      Perhaps this is the real reason why they call themselves "Delta".

    • sudokatsu 6 hours ago
      You have 30 minutes to move your cube
    • nimski 13 hours ago
      bravo
  • owenversteeg 3 hours ago
    In short: it plays far too well (~2500 ELO.) People think it originally played at a reasonable level and accidentally got more powerful as the seatback computers got more powerful; the same thing happened to the Mac chess app with the release of the M1.
    • xxs 1 hour ago
      >Mac chess app with the release of the M1.

      That would be exceptionally sloppy development. Phones have had more than enough power for long enough. 4 core Skylake (Mac 2016) would be well beyond human capabilities, if it's just raw power.

      The "thinking" (difficult) limit should be considered moves ahead, both depth and count. With a possible limit to time, if there is any time control.

      • dominicrose 50 minutes ago
        I'm guessing the app got better precisely because there was a time limit.
    • anthk 36 minutes ago
      Eh, no. A single Core Duo would be enough to challenge most masters with GNUChess or StockFish, no Apple fanboyism it's needed.

      Heck; even Nanochess was rough for a novice like me, and that on an n270 CPU.

  • nomilk 9 hours ago
    There's a bug in the Delta Air Lines chess program. After cxd6 en passant, the captured pawn isn't removed [0]. White's bishop is then able to check the black king through the pawn (the pawn that should have been removed) [1].

    [0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nyov4F7eWbT8uNoeclPY8uXVG6f...

    [1] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eEPBHqE5rpefE9gWflgS_hUwYGS...

    • teraflop 9 hours ago
      I guess it's just a display bug, then? Though it's hard to imagine what kind of bug would lead the game state and the visual representation to get out of sync in that particular way.
      • dominicrose 30 minutes ago
        The game is likely in javascript but because of this bug we know it's not using React because with React the programmer doesn't update the view, React does.
      • throwaway38294 3 hours ago
        My guess is they only remove captured pieces on the moved-to square (maybe relying on an implicit capture by overwriting an array entry). This is probably easier than actually tracking pieces that get captured.
  • AnotherGoodName 13 hours ago
    I wonder if they gave the chess bot X seconds of thinking time in an era when computers were slower?

    The way you set difficulty for turn based game ai is that you limit how far ahead the algorithm searches. If you set the lookahead based on compute time your difficulties will be way out of line if someone upgrades the CPU.

    • Telemakhos 13 hours ago
      Something similar happened to the macOS chess game, which has always been bundled with OSX/macOS. Once upon a time it was easy to beat in easy mode, which restricted how long it could thing in advance.

      When Big Sur rolled out around 2020, Apple introduced a bug which disabled the difficulty slider: no matter what it was set to, it was hard or impossible to beat. In macOS Sequoia, the Chess app got updated again, and supposedly they fixed the difficulty slider, but in the interval silicon improved so much that the old restraints (like think for only a second) mean little. The lowest levels play like a grand master.

      • mh2266 11 hours ago
        is there some reason to implement it as a time limit instead of iterations or something else deterministic? it being affected by CPU speed or machine load seems obvious.

        or whatever makes sense if “iterations” isn’t a thing, I know nothing about chess algorithms

        • twoodfin 11 hours ago
          It’s simpler. Chess is a search through the space of possible moves, looking for a move that’s estimated to be better than the best move you’ve seen so far.

          The search is by depth of further moves, and “better” is a function of heuristics (explicit or learned) on the resulting board positions, because most of the time you can’t be sure a move will inevitably result in a win or a loss.

          So any particular move evaluation might take more or less time before the algorithm gives up on it—or chooses it as the new winner. To throw a consistent amount of compute at each move, the simple thing to do is give the engine consistent amounts of time per move.

          • TheDong 7 hours ago
            > To throw a consistent amount of compute at each move, the simple thing to do is give the engine consistent amounts of time per move.

            The simple thing to do is give it a limit on the total number of states it can explore in its search.

            If your goal is consistency, wall-clock time makes no sense. If I run 'make -j20', should the chess computer become vastly easier because the CPU is being used to compile, not search? Should 'nice -n 20 <chess app pid>' make the chess computer worse?

            Should my computer thermal-throttling because it's a hot day make the chess computer worse, so chess is harder in winter?

            If the goal is consistency, then wall-clock isn't the simple way to do it.

            • shadowpho 7 hours ago
              >If the goal is consistency, then wall-clock isn't the simple way to do it.

              It’s simpler than doing a limit on number of states, and for some applications consistency isn’t super important.

              Doing a time limit also enforces bot moving in a reasonable time. It puts a nice limit to set up a compromise between speed and difficulty.

              Doing state limit with a time limit might be better way to do it, but is harder.

              • Dylan16807 1 hour ago
                > It’s simpler than doing a limit on number of states

                According to who?

                A counter that you ++ each move sounds a lot easier to me than throwing off a separate thread/callback to handle a timer.

                > Doing a time limit also enforces bot moving in a reasonable time.

                It's designed for specific hardware, and will never have to run on anything significantly slower, but might have to run on things significantly faster. It doesn't need a time cutoff that would only matter in weird circumstances and make it do a weirdly bad move. It needs to be ready for the future.

                > It puts a nice limit to set up a compromise between speed and difficulty.

                Both methods have that compromise, but using time is way more volatile.

        • microtherion 9 hours ago
          A time limit is also deterministic in some sense. Level settings used to be mainly time based, because computers at lower settings were no serious competition to decent players, but you don't necessarily want to wait for 30 seconds each move, so there were more casual and more serious levels.

          Limiting the search depth is much more deterministic. At lower levels, it has hilarious results, and is pretty good at emulating beginning players (who know the rules, but have a limited skill of calculating moves ahead).

          One problem with fixed search depth is that I think most good engines prefer to use dynamic search depth (where they sense that some positions need to be searched a bit deeper to reach a quiescent point), so they will be handicapped with a fix depth.

          • Dylan16807 1 hour ago
            > One problem with fixed search depth is that I think most good engines prefer to use dynamic search depth (where they sense that some positions need to be searched a bit deeper to reach a quiescent point), so they will be handicapped with a fix depth.

            Okay, but I want to point out nobody was suggesting a depth limit.

            For a time-limited algorithm to work properly, it has to have some kind of sensible ordering of how it evaluates moves, looking deeper as time passes in a dynamic way.

            Switch to an iteration limit, and the algorithm will still have those features.

      • microtherion 9 hours ago
        Heh, I was just discussing this some minutes ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46595777
    • Disparallel 7 hours ago
      Getting more thinking time tends to give surprisingly small improvements to playing strength. For a classical alpha-beta search based engine, for a given ply (turn) you might have ~20 moves to consider each depth of the search tree. If you're trying to brute force search deeper, a 10x increase in compute time or power doesn't even let you search an extra ply.

      Elo gains for engines tend to come from better evaluation, better pruning, and better search heuristics. That's not to say that longer search time or a stronger CPU doesn't help, it just doesn't magically make a weak engine into a strong engine.

      • gridspy 6 hours ago
        There is a strategy called alpha beta pruning meaning you can discard a lot of move options quickly based on the results of similar branches. That and caching similar board states means 20x options does not mean 20x CPU time.
        • 333c 2 hours ago
          The comment you're replying to already mentions this.
    • Nition 10 hours ago
      Alternatively, since there's only one difficulty provided ("easy"), I wondered if the programmer have selected say, DifficultyLevels array index 0 meaning the easiest, but it was actually sorted hardest first.
    • gowld 12 hours ago
      • Sohcahtoa82 9 hours ago
        Naming it the "Turbo" button rather than making "turbo mode" the default and then pressing a button for "slow" mode, IMO, was marketing genius, even though the results are the same.

        Blizzard did a similar thing in World of Warcraft during the beta. After playing for a while, your character would get "exhausted" and start earning half experience for killing mobs. The only way to stop being exhausted would be to log off or spend a LONG time in an inn. At some point, they flipped the script. They made the "exhausted" state the default, and while offline or in an inn, you would gain a "rested" experience buffer, where you would earn double experience.

        The mechanic worked exactly the same, but by giving it different terms, players felt rewarded for stepping away from the game occasionally, rather than punished for playing too long. They also marketed it as a way of giving players a way to "catch up" after spending a day or two offline.

        • exidy 2 hours ago
          The original intention behind the turbo button was to give a way to set the clock speed something closer to a 4.77 MHz Intel 8088 for the benefit of games that relied on CPU cycle timing. Therefore turbo was the default and slow mode the exception.

          For some reason this feature persisted in PC compatibles long past having any useful purpose, e.g. toggling a 386 between 33 MHz and 25 MHz. Perhaps manufacturers feared any PC without such a button would be perceived as slower, even though as you say, it's really a slow-down button not a turbo button.

          • Dylan16807 1 hour ago
            Different senses of "default".

            Yes of course you'll keep it on the fast speed as much as you can, not the slow speed. But it's still presented as fast being a bonus rather than slow being a malus.

  • markgall 13 hours ago
    Is this really true? I played a few games with it in August. It's not very good.

    It's one of those old programs where 95% of the moves are pretty strong. But if you just do nothing and sit back it will occasionally make a random blunder and then you grind it out. I figured it's how they were able to weaken a chess engine back in the day; can't adjust the overall strength, so add random blunders.

    I'm only about 2000 on lichess but I beat it pretty much every time, especially once I realized there is no reason to try anything sharp.

    • strstr 13 hours ago
      My suspicion is that the bot was a fairly standard chess bot, but the difficulties were set based on computation time. As airplane computers got better, it turned into a beast.

      As a result, if you tried this on older planes, it might have been “easier”

      • monster_truck 9 hours ago
        One of my first paid iOS dev jobs was porting a Go game from iPad to iPhone, don't even think the 4 was out yet. It also used computation time based difficulties. By the time I was done writing it, I knew a few tricks I could eke a win out with on 19x19.

        When the iPhone 5S came out, I tried it on a whim to check the UI scaling etc... the beginner difficulty on a 9x9 board deleted me. It was grabbing something like 64x more samples per go, the lowest difficulty on the 5S (instant responses) never lost a single game vs the highest difficulty 3GS (15 second turns)

        iPhones had a lot of moments like that. Silly bullshit like "what if every pixel was a cell in a collection view" would go from "oh it can barely do 128" to "more responsive than that was, with 2 million" in a few gens.

        • plorkyeran 3 hours ago
          One of the minor weird things about iOS development early on was just how fast the transition was from the simulator being dramatically faster than actual devices to the simulator being slower than devices. When I started out you’d get things working nicely in the simulator and then discover it’s an order of magnitude too slow on a phone. Just a few years later and my phone was faster than my laptop until thermal throttling kicked in.
      • throwaway6977 12 hours ago
        Chess on M series Macs has the same issue. Even level 1 is easily 2000+ Elo because of the same thing.
        • microtherion 10 hours ago
          Oh, this led me down a rabbit hole…

          I was maintainer of the Chess app from the early 2000s to about 2015. We first noticed in 2004 that level 1 (which was then "Computer thinks for 1 second per move) was getting stronger with each hardware generation (and in fact stronger than myself).

          So we introduced 3 new levels, with the Computer thinking 1, 2, or 3 moves ahead. This solved the problem of the engine getting stronger (though the jump from "3 moves ahead" to "1 second" got worse and worse).

          A few years after I had handed off the project, somebody decided to meddle with the level setting code (I was not privy to that decision). The time based levels were entirely replaced with depth based levels (which eliminates the strength inflation problem, but unfortunately was not accompanied by UI changes). But for some reason, parsing of the depth setting was broken as well, so the engine now always plays at depth 40 (stronger than ever).

          This should be an easy fix, if Apple gets around to make it (Chess was always a side project for the maintainers). I filed feedback report 21609379.

          It seems that somebody else had already discovered this and fixed it in a fork of the open source project: https://github.com/aglee/Chess/commit/dfb16b3f32e5a6633d2119...

        • hinkley 12 hours ago
          I found a used copy of Warcraft 3 at the store about ten years after it came out, proudly brought it home, fired it up and didn’t recall the graphics being quite that awful, but the first time I tried to scroll the map sideways it shot to the far end because they didn’t build a timing loop onto the animation and I shut it down, disappointed.

          Unfortunately they never released a remastered version of it. They seem to have made some clone of it called “reforged” whatever the fuck that means.

          • jasonwatkinspdx 12 hours ago
            Yeah, Reforged was received very poorly so they basically end of life'd the franchise.

            There is a thriving community with a couple different choices for servers to play on. So I'm sure there's a fix for your mouse speed issue.

            Check Twitch for people streaming it: https://www.twitch.tv/directory/category/warcraft-iii

            Grubby, one of the early esports stars, still streams it regularly and hosts his own for fun tournaments with other streamers.

            • SOLAR_FIELDS 10 hours ago
              Reforged was received poorly because it was a lazy half assed job that was a blatant cash grab. Not because culturally we have moved on and the game has aged beyond being fun

              You probably knew this, but wanted to make sure others knew that the reason they ended the franchise is not because there was no market, but instead it was pure unadulterated greed that led to that situation. In an alternate reality they would have actually done the remake justice and there would be a lively competitive scene

              • pixelpoet 10 hours ago
                Sorry for the aside but,

                > SOLAR_FIELDS

                Panoramic Greetings!

          • bombcar 12 hours ago
            There are various hacks and tools for games (especially DOS games, but for W3 there may exist the same) which delayloop various calls to slow things down enough "to work".

            The Dolphin emulator has run into similar things; usually doing things "too fast" just gets you more FPS but sometimes it causes the game to go insane.

            • the_af 8 hours ago
              Also, some DOS games were coded so that they ran correctly no matter the speed of the hardware, like Alley Cat :)
          • droptablemain 11 hours ago
            This is pretty much the experience of trying to play any game from the '90s on modern hardware. It always requires a bit of tinkering and usually a patch from the modding community. Funniest one I've found is Fallout Tactics. The random encounter frequency is somehow tied to clock speed so you'll basically get hit with random encounters during map travel about once every half second.
            • usefulcat 10 hours ago
              I've been enjoying Total Annihilation since 1997. Still works fine on fairly modern hardware with Windows 11. No modifications other than some additional maps that I downloaded decades ago.
              • droptablemain 9 hours ago
                Interesting. Assuming it did not use DirectDraw -- that's often a major pain point.
          • cwillu 3 hours ago
            There's an SC2 custom campaign that reimplements the wc3 campaign that is worth a look.
          • barbs 4 hours ago
            Sorry if this is a dumb question but did you patch it to the latest version? I don't know if the in-game updater still works but from memory you could download some sort of patch exe file and update it that way.
          • psunavy03 11 hours ago
            The original Wing Commander was like that. Playable on 286s/386s, then Pentiums and beyond showed up and it was unplayable. The game started in the "simulator" to show you the controls, and you'd get blown out of space in about 0.5 seconds.
            • Terr_ 10 hours ago
              Oh man, I remember that: on a newer computer, I'd tap the left arrow to turn and the Hornet would do a 360.

              I suppose, technically, that's one way to make the Scimitar feel more responsive...

            • the_af 8 hours ago
              The original Wing Commander brings back memories! I remember being amazed by the graphics and the story.

              These days I cannot stand games with cliched storyline and tend to skip the cutscenes, but back then it all seemed so amazing... like a cross between a movie and a game.

              I remember playing it later and running into speed issues too, but usually there was a way to tweak the emulator in order to fix this.

          • afandian 10 hours ago
            I think it means gcc -O0
          • the_af 8 hours ago
            > they didn’t build a timing loop onto the animation

            Wow.

            1984 (!!!) IBM PC (DOS) port of the game Alley Cat had timings built it. They actually used the system clock if I remember correctly, so it would always run at the correct pace no matter how fast the computer. Last I checked it, decades later, it still ran at the correct speed!

            I guess some lessons don't get passed on?

        • monster_truck 9 hours ago
          AFAIK the only reason Chess even ships at all anymore is as a burn utility. They'll set it to AI vs AI at max difficulty to stress the system and make sure the cooling/power management works.
          • microtherion 9 hours ago
            Never heard that one (it may indeed be used that way, but if it were the only reason Apple would probably keep it in the Apple internal parts of their OS installs).

            It would also be of limited use, as the engine is purely CPU based; it is single threaded and does not even use SIMD AFAIK, let alone GPU features or the neural engines.

            • monster_truck 7 hours ago
              It can't be deleted because it's part of the system tools :)
    • lurk2 10 hours ago
      > I'm only about 2000 on lichess

      That puts you in the top 7% of players on the site. I have a hard time believing you could get to that rating without knowing that.

      • jibal 6 hours ago
        They aren't talking about the site, they're talking about their strength (as measured by that site) so it can be compared to the numbers in the article.
    • Uehreka 10 hours ago
      > I figured it's how they were able to weaken a chess engine back in the day; can't adjust the overall strength, so add random blunders.

      In tom7’s Elo World, he does this (“dilutes” strong Chess AIs with a certain percentage of random moves) to smooth the gradient since otherwise it would be impossible to evaluate his terrible chess bots against something like Stockfish since they’d just lose every time. https://youtu.be/DpXy041BIlA?si=z7g1a_TX_QoPYN9b

      • redox99 5 hours ago
        Such a great video.
    • mna_ 59 minutes ago
      What's your name on lichess? Wanna play me?
    • sbrother 12 hours ago
      1. Uh, isn't 2000 like extremely fucking good?

      2. I played a chess bot on Delta on easy and it was really bad, felt like random moves. I beat it trivially and I am actually bad at chess, ~1000 on chess.com. I wonder if this one is different?

      • NewsaHackO 12 hours ago
        Yeah, he just casually said he had an elo that high, as if that doesn't blow 90% of people out of the water.
      • bluedino 9 hours ago
        I wonder if it's different on different planes? I can easily beat my friend and he won a few games on a flight, I played on a different flight and got crushed for two hours straight. I'm probably 1400-ish
      • Jach 8 hours ago
        This was my experience on a long Delta flight, I don't remember if I picked easy or not but it was laughably bad. I took its lunch money for a game and then turned the screen off. I was mostly irritated by the horrible touch interface, it felt so laggy among other issues. (I don't have a ranking, I barely play these days and usually just in person, but my memory says around 1400 back in the yahoo chess days as a teen but it's probably closer to 1000 now.)
      • umanwizard 12 hours ago
        Note that 2000 on lichess is probably weaker than 2000 on chess.com (or USCF or FIDE)
        • dmuino 12 hours ago
          That's true, I'm 2050-2100 lichess, around 1800 on chess.com. Never played a rated tournament but played some rated players who were 1400-1500 rated USCF, and they were roughly my strength, maybe a bit better. Still the Delta bot, easy mode, was much, much better than me.
          • fragmede 10 hours ago
            Casually just in the top 2-3 percent of chess players globally world wide humble brag. I'm not that good at it, just a little bit!
            • jmb99 6 hours ago
              I mean, if you’re in the top 3 percent of anything, yes that’s pretty good, but not unbelievably so, especially in the field of chess. If for instance you randomly put together a classroom full of chess players, there’s decent odds one of them is better than top 3%. Two classrooms and it’s almost a certainty.

              Put another way, looking at chess.com users, there are ~6 million people who would count as the top 3 percent. Difficult to achieve, yes, but if 6 million people can achieve it, it’s not really a “humble brag,” it’s just a statement.

              • refulgentis 5 hours ago
                It made me smile to hear “I’m only 97th percentile” isn’t a humblebrag. You may be employing an old saw of mine, you can make people* react however you want by leaning on either percentages or whole numbers when you shouldn’t.

                * who don’t have strong numeracy and time to think

        • citrus1330 10 hours ago
          It's still significantly stronger than the average online chess player
        • mcmoor 7 hours ago
          I heard it's never intended to be the same since initial rating for Lichess and chess.com respectively is 1500 and 1200. So they should have 300 rating difference on average. Quite fitting with what the other commenter claims actually.
          • reassess_blind 3 hours ago
            I don’t think it would average out to a 300 elo difference simply based on the starting rating being 300 apart.

            If everything else was the same, and people play enough games they will average out to the same elo.

            The difference is caused by many factors. People don’t play enough games to sink to their real elo, the player pool is different, and you gain/lose fewer points per game with Lichess’s elo algorithm.

            • mcmoor 1 hour ago
              ELO is relative. There's no reason why a GM ELO should be 2800 or 280 or 28000. So it's all decided by ELO of every other person. So if the ELO gain/loss calculation and audience of Lichess and chess.com are exactly the same, because of different starting position, I don't think they'd converge to the same ELO but instead will differ by starting position difference.

              Also I can't really prove it mathematically but I guess average ELO would also hover on the starting ELO. Because I can't see why it would hover anywhere else and any ELO gained would be lost by someone else.

              • reassess_blind 1 hour ago
                On further thought yes, I think you're correct.

                When I started playing I believe chess.com let you select whether you’re beginner, intermediate or advanced and your start elo was based on that. Could be wrong, and it could’ve changed since.

  • tmathmeyer 13 hours ago
    Not only is the delta chessbot bad (My low 1600s lichess-elo self can win handily every single time against any difficulty, white or black), but there's also a sequence of moves I found which deterministically causes the game to crash. I should probably record it next time I'm on a flight.
    • dmuino 12 hours ago
      I'm 2100 rapid on lichess, 2050 blitz and bullet. I got destroyed every single time I played the easy mode version on Delta. It knew opening theory. It did not blunder a single time in the middle game. I never made it to an end game.
      • gridspy 6 hours ago
        Sounds likely it had an opening book dataset. You just needed a weird opening
    • mvkel 12 hours ago
      There's only one difficulty setting
  • YokoZar 1 hour ago
    This reminds me of a bug I reported in 2007 Ubuntu where the default "easy" chess difficulty was too hard. It was eventually fixed in 2014 by using different chess engines. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-chess/+bug/1...

    What a world where we have to put significant extra work into making the computer bad enough that a human can compete.

  • conartist6 12 hours ago
    There used to be a chess program in windows 3.1 that would destroy me every time. Not that I was very good, of course! But I think if you just code the known opening books it's not too hard to make a bot that requires a skilled player to beat.
  • s3p 13 hours ago
    I am so glad this made first page news on HN!!

    Years ago I remember flying with Delta and wondering why the delta bot could beat me in a handful of moves on EASY. Absolutely insane.

  • whazor 1 hour ago
    Inside entertainment systems it would be nice if you could select an ELO score to play against, with a slider and persona's (like chess.com has?).
  • tromp 11 hours ago
    Sometimes the airlines chess app gives you the option to play another passenger, but even after waiting for half an hour I've never been hooked up with another player. Has anyone else been able to?
    • chrisfosterelli 11 hours ago
      Yes, as someone who is usually flying with my GF, I love this feature! Unfortunately air canada's implementation is abysmal and anytime there is a pilot announcement it interrupts the game long enough to break the network connection and cause it to end the game.
    • tantalor 11 hours ago
      The best part about this is sneaking a look at your opponents screen if you are lucky enough to sit behind them.
      • cheeze 11 hours ago
        Does this... help with chess?
        • Nition 10 hours ago
          I think that might have been the joke.
        • fragmede 10 hours ago
          you can see the possible moves they're thinking of making
          • 4d4m 8 hours ago
            Super fun
      • Grisu_FTP 2 hours ago
        Being one Seat behind instead of one step ahead
      • TomatoCo 8 hours ago
        Ah, the Zap Brannigan school.
    • nightpool 11 hours ago
      It only works with passengers on your same flight. In practice, it's good for kids in the same family or school group who are sitting across the aisle from each other. I've used it for some of their other games
      • billforsternz 7 hours ago
        I know I'm getting old when I read comments like this. It wouldn't have occurred to me in a million years that it might pair me with passengers on another flight. I'm conditioned by having first experienced this feature probably 30 years or so ago when pairing to passengers on other flights would have been science fiction.
      • dheera 8 hours ago
        Aren't they all hooked up to Wi-Fi now? Why the restriction on same flight?
        • DaSHacka 7 hours ago
          That's how the system was originally designed, before in flight WiFi was common. If they're gonna hook it up to the broader internet and allow playing games cross-flight, they might as well just hook it up to an existing service like chess.com and have a significantly larger user base imo
    • acomjean 11 hours ago
      one flight I was on had trivia which allowed multiplayer. We ended up with about 10 playing the game. I thought it was a good idea for a networked computer and captive audience.
    • bdamm 11 hours ago
      Some day we might fly on the same airplane!
  • JALTU 13 hours ago
    On the other hand, the poker apps encourage me to consider a career change. I regularly crush the "opposition" with my card-counting skills. World Series of Poker, I am all-in!!! ;-)
    • stevage 10 hours ago
      Card counting in poker?
      • brewdad 10 hours ago
        Gotta keep track of how many more cards you get in seven card stud.
    • LtdJorge 10 hours ago
      Do you mean Blackjack?
  • jfaat 8 hours ago
    I see some chess players so I want to plug the chess coaching app [0] I'm building. I don't know many chess players and could use feedback, but I had been paying for chess.com premium and tried some others and it's always game-level feedback which is insane to me because it's really not that helpful (as evidenced by my abysmal rating.)

    I'm running games through stockfish/lc0/Maia and doing some analysis of patterns across multiple games, then feeding that to an agent who can replay through positions and some other fun stuff. Really keen to find out if it's helpful for anyone else!

    [0]https://chessfiend.com

    • taftster 8 hours ago
      I'm going to check this out, as it's legitimately attempting to solve the gap in online chess coaches. As said on the home page, I don't want to know what to play, I want to know why I'm not seeing it or how to think about the move differently. This is the gap and I hope you find success. I'm definitely going to check it out.
    • taftster 8 hours ago
      But to ask, did you consider "chessfriend" instead of "chessfiend" for branding? "fiend" can carry a negative connotation, which I'm not particularly lining up with in your product.
      • jfaat 8 hours ago
        I hadn't considered that name specifically but I'm not married to the branding! I appreciate that feedback and your other comment validating I'm not the only person with this problem. Happy to chat more via email (in bio)
  • muyuu 8 hours ago
    I don't think I've played this bot. I guess the few times I flew in America wasn't with Delta as I would definitely try chess if available.

    From what I've seen in the video I'd give the bot around 2100 FIDE equivalent. Granted you don't play bots like you play people. This bot essentially plays top engine moves and every now and then it introduces suboptimal moves. This technique can be played against choosing appropriate openings and being patient with calculation.

  • ccamrobertson 11 hours ago
    United sadly removed games from its in-flight entertainment so I can no longer trounce 6 year old Magnus.
  • specproc 13 hours ago
    I used to fly a lot of Turkish, and their one's laughably bad. If anyone here works for Turkish Airlines, get yourself a better Chess bot.
    • tomjakubowski 11 hours ago
      Don't be surprised when you learn their so-called "chess bots" are actually people, lying hidden below the floor of the passenger cabin, moving pieces with the help of levers and magnets.
    • Terretta 9 hours ago
      Turkish Airlines likes their passengers to feel smart.
  • hk1337 12 hours ago
    I had similar experiences playing the computer in Tzar: Burden of the Crown. It’s not chess but it is a strategy game.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzar%3A_The_Burden_of_the_Crow...

  • gip 12 hours ago
    I played the bot (probably early 2025) and wasn't that impressed. I won 5-1 or something like it. I did win one or two local chess tournaments in the past but I'm really not an impressive chess player.
  • efitz 10 hours ago
    Someday a delta engineer will go fix the UI bug where the labels for the difficulty levels were inverted in order compared to the enums used by the chess engine.
  • shen 12 hours ago
    The Air Canada bot is too easy on medium but hard is unplayable because the computer is too slow at making each move.
  • runarberg 8 hours ago
    Icelandair’s chess engine was equally brutal (well maybe only slightly less brutal). I played a couple of rounds on medium difficulty only to realize I didn’t stand a chance. I played a few more on beginner, and still lost all my game by blundering some tactics to the engine. Just before landing in Iceland I manage to get one game to the endgame, where the bot finally starts feeling like a beginner (well an advanced beginner) and I got one victory in.
  • lspears 13 hours ago
    This is great